Modesty Cops

[bloodyrosemccoy]

Y'all might think we Salt Lakers are weird, but we ain't got NOTHING on our slightly-to-the-south neighbor Provo and its BYU Bubble.* Sure, here in SLC we do get Disapproving Mormons who will frown at your immodest tank top, and a lot of them do insist that the onus is on the woman to keep men from thinking Impure Thoughts,** but the concern troll notes aren't quite such a big deal.

I shouldn't have read the comments, though. Highlights include:

-The original author of the post going "Dude, I wrote this like FIVE MONTHS AGO, what is even happening"
-A lot of helpful comments along the lines of "But my dear that is a VERY IMMODEST SHIRT do you want the boys to THINK ILL OF YOU?" when it's like an ordinary T-shirt.***
-Creeps, creeping on her
-My absolute favorite in terms of wrongness, in which a lady sanctimoniously declares that "my innocent 10-year-old son told me that the layers shirt I was lounging around the house in was making him uncomfortable; did I bite his head off about being a pervert or shame him into leaving the room? No; I changed my shirt because I love him and I didn’t want him to be uncomfortable" like that makes her really nice and considerate when all I can think is, How the HELL did this 10-year-old boy become an obsessive prude? and suddenly the whole anecdote gets really creepy.

God, I live in a weird neighborhood. At least I'm just on the outskirts.


*A lot of great artists and authors go/went to Brigham Young University, and while a lot of them are cool, somehow I can always tell just by the art and writing whether it's a BYU person. There's some intangible flavor there that's tough to explain to outsiders.

**Were I a dude, I would frankly be insulted by the constant implication that I was completely incapable of restraining myself around women I found attractive. The argument that they are helpless victims of women's wiles has always baffled me for that reason.

***Not that even smaller shirts would be worthy of notes like that, but it does go to show how hypersensitive people can get about things like this.

Comments

[ellixis.livejournal.com]

I was also a little uncomfortable with the juxtaposition of "innocent 10-year-old son" and the implication that this kid's getting that kind of uncomfortable about the shirt his mom is wearing. Whaaaat?

[daiq.livejournal.com]

As a teacher, comments like that make my "freaky stuff is going on" radar twinge!

[ellixis.livejournal.com]

I'm hoping it's just Shit That Didn't Really Happen, myself, because that feels off and weird, for serious.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's ... unsettling. If nothing else, he's picking up some really weird signals about women from somewhere.

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

Srs. That one freaked the everloving hell out of me.

[marag.livejournal.com]

The BYU kids would get along *great* with the Orthodox Jewish yeshiva bochers. Seriously, I think you could transfer this post directly to Brooklyn and just take out LDS and I wouldn't have realized the difference.

Ugh. It's this kind of crap that makes it hard for me to tell how much I need to police my own daughter's clothing. On the one hand, holy shit, I don't want to be these people! On the other hand, I really don't think that preteen girls need to be walking around in skirts so short that we can see their underwear.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I seem to recall that David Byrne wrote a long blog entry about Orthodox Jews complaining when a bike path was opened up in their neighborhood because they didn't want to be subjected to the sight of IMMODESTLY DRESSED LADIES, but that's all I know about that. (I did like that his point was basically "You live in a population of other people. Sorry, but you're gonna have to accommodate them.")

I suppose there's a question of the right clothes for the right occasion, but that seems to be mostly about the clothes indicating what you're up to at any given point. Social rules and codes and all that. It doesn't have to be about sex.

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

I honestly would say if she's comfortable in it, let her wear it. The truth is, she'll probably get a lot of unwanted attention in those teeny skirts, and will stop wearing them on her own. Maybe something like, follow the school dress code, but what you wear out to the movies is your own business. Funny enough, teens often sort these things out on their own, but too much policing is just going to make her want to wear it more, despite any negative attention she gets, because teenagers, they are contrary.

Also, you don't want to make her feel like her outfit is the reason that people are treating her in a particular way, because, yes, people do make judgments, BUT, dudes who act inappropriately are ENTIRELY responsible for their behavior, and you need to instill in her a feeling that she is her own person, and does not need to bow to the demands of random assholes.

(I am WAY more modest now at 30 than I was at 15, and it had nothing to do with what any person in a position of authority told me. Alas, because I am short and look young for my age, I can literally wear like five layers and STILL get leered at inappropriately, because I look like an easy target -- but that is entirely a different problem -- and also sorta reinforces my personal opinion that modesty is complete ****ing bs. Also I'm an art model, and have only *once* ever been treated inappropriately while I was *completely naked* -- a dude kissed my foot and I sent him packing -- and yet I was once violently assaulted while wearing a long-sleeved shirt with a tank top underneath, a sweater, and an ankle-length skirt. Clothing is NOT the problem.)

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

GAH! Violently assaulted is not good! Though your assessment does prove a point. If all those art class guys could keep their focus on their art when you were standing up there au natural, then the guy who came at you when your clothes were on really has no excuse.

I really don't know what I'd do with a kid. They can make astoundingly stupid fashion decisions sometimes, but I suspect that calling them on it would only lead to their doubling-down on their choices. Probably this is another good reason for me not to have any. I salute people who do and have to work this sort of thing out.

[redbird]

Of course she didn't bit his head off: she and his father have probably spent years teaching him to tell women that they are dressed and behaving inappropriately, and she's gotten exactly what she was looking for.

That she can't see a space between "let my son tell me to change my clothes" and "bite his head off for being a pervert" is indicative, here. Where's "honey, it's just a shirt. Go back to your homework"?

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

Or even, "Honey, they're just breasts, they provided food for you when you were a baby, and you can only see the outline of my nipples because it's chilly in here. That's just how bodies work. There's nothing inherently sexual about a body, we all have them. Now go back to your homework."

I mean, I'm not a parent, but from when I was a kid and growing up in a culture of shame, just for my own $0.02, I would waaaaaaay rather kids be a little too comfortable with nakedness than "OH MY GOD BOOBIES YOU SLUT."

(Aside, I had a friend's five year old son walk in on me while I was bathing, and I sorta casually shifted so he couldn't see much, or at least, as much as I could hide while completely naked in the bath, and I just asked him if he needed anything, and told him that I would be out in about five minutes and that we'd play then, and he just wandered out and found a game he wanted to play. Thank god they did not freak out on me. Apparently he was just figuring out that ladies had different bits. Kids, man, kids.)

[badgermirlacca.livejournal.com]

So much focus on the poster, and on the guy. So little on the woman who decided to be the Purity Police.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I think it's interesting that a lot of the comments thought the note was from a GUY, too.

[baroncognito.livejournal.com]

Well, there are things about the note that would make me think it's from a guy, just delivered by a woman. Mainly the "I'm not trying to be creepy" bit. And if you're not trying to be creepy, why start out with "Dear cute girl"?

And, if I'm being entirely honest, I've never met a woman with handwriting that bad. Which is not to say they can't have handwriting that bad, it's just not something I expect.

[dark-phoenix54.livejournal.com]

*shudders*

There is so very much wrong with the relationship between the 10 year old and his mother I don't even know where to start.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I have always thought it's strange how an obsession with purity seems to translate into an obsession with sex. You start seeing it EVERYWHERE, and it's always on your mind. I guess that transmits to your kids? Or ... well. I'm not sure if he's getting it from her, or what, but it's strange either way.

[dinogrrl.livejournal.com]

Ugh. This stuff 8|. I run into this a lot where I live, yay Bible Belt. Lots of super conservatives here, lots of homeschoolers, and the super conservative homeschoolers have a love affair with education materials from BYU, so there's a large BYU influence in this area. Drives me up the effing wall. I'm so glad I'm not constantly immersed in that culture any more. Guh.

[ravenofdreams.livejournal.com]

There was a video I saw recently that reminds me of your **. The poster put a raw steak on the floor between her two dogs, and you can hear her say "no." One dog doesn't even look at the steak after that. One dog looks regretfully once or twice, but still doesn't touch the steak.
If I were a guy, I would be annoyed that people thought I were less capable of self-control than a dog.

[black-rider.livejournal.com]

EXACTLY!!

Also, my thinking is like, most people from a very young age are capable of holding their bowels and urine for at least a certain amount of time. If we're capable of putting off a genuine biological imperative until an appropriate moment, we are certainly capable of keeping our completely optional but maybe highly desirable sexytimes in our pants.

I mean, if we genuinely don't think men can control themselves, and we are not just rationalizing the behavior of men who choose to behave in an unacceptable manner, why don't we put wank-rooms next to the toilets?

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

why don't we put wank-rooms next to the toilets?

BWAHAHA.

... Though as I understand it, for some people public toilets ARE wank-rooms. But even then, that means that even most of the horniest of people will at least wait until they're in the wank-room, so once again the ones who don't have no excuse.