Utahn Antipride

[bloodyrosemccoy]

You’ve all presumably heard of the spread of Utardation to Texas. It’s getting more entertaining, too; the ensuing court cases are starting to sound like an insane domino effect of objections.

I used to wonder why people made lawyer jokes.

Also, the Salt Lake Tribune is having an absolute festival of headlines here, even more than the national news. The only one I found remotely interesting was the one on how some polygamists seem to fit in just fine. It’s a portrait of other polygamists in this country, but I found some gaps in the report just from being an anthropologist and knowing just a few polyamorous individuals—I’d be interested to see what someone more in tune with it had to say. (You get the impression from the article that all polygamists, at least around here in this Civilized Country, are a. Mormon and b. polygynous.) I have a very different image of polygamy and polyamory from either that article or the reports of the crazy FLDS—or, more accurately, I have a broader image. I’m not sure how most people might view it. It’s good to get a reminder sometimes. 

Comments

[http://users.livejournal.com/_wastrel/]

I'm curious about what your image of polyamory would be.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Well, let's see ...

I have studied anthropology enough to know that monogamy is certainly not the norm everywhere. I see places with multiple wives, and a few with multiple husbands. These systems vary greatly in their treatment of gender roles and circumstances of marriage, so the only cohesive model you get from them is that saying there's only one correct, traditional type of marriage is preposterous.

I've also seen also the unofficial kind, the kind that isn't pointed out with pomp and ceremony, and in those I've also seen that it's not always "one wife, many husbands" or vice versa; it's a small cluster of people who happen to get along pretty well. Polyamory is complex and not as rare as people would think. It involves the normal relationship issues, which can be complicated simply by the number of people involved. It's not limited to one sort of person (like, say, Mormons) in any sense.

I think people find it so difficult to accept for a few reasons. First of all, it breaks what they PERCEIVE to be tradition, just like homosexuality and other "deviations" do. Also like homosexuality, polyamory has something to do with SEX, and so there is the possibility that we can talk about SEXY SCANDAL and ignore the relationship part. I think that'd be the case even if there weren't the FLDS around ...

But we DO have the FLDS around, and that's most people's model of polygamy: they see creepy, lecherous old men marrying and then raping their 14-year-old nieces, beating their children, etc., and use that as the base for why polygamy is bad. It's the same as pointing to all the statistics for domestic abuse as a check against monogamy, but people don't see that.

And after all that I've seen, here's what I think: I think that polyamory is as viable as any other relationship. It's what some creeps DO with it that we have to watch out for.

[wendyzski.livejournal.com]

I'm getting annoyed at the continual use of "polygamist" like it's a dirty word. I have several friends who live in poly households and it works for them just fine. (Wouldn't for me)

But they are all consenting adults, and the fact that this is NOT the case in this community makes a case for investigation as far as I'm concerned. Pregnant 13 yr olds and 16 yr olds with 4 kids - ew.

As I quote I saw on the case says "We're not saying you can't wear prairie dresses. We're saying you can't have sex with a 12-yr-old".

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Yup. Agreed. People see Those Crazy Polygamists and think it applies to ALL poly people. It's a little like seeing a guy who beats his wife and concluding that monogamy is bad.

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

Thirded. Heck, I'll even speak up for the Mormons here too and say that some of them find the lecherous-crazy-polygamist types creepy as hell too.

BTW, I liked what you said above about poly relationships and people making stupid assumptions (or is that redundant?) about what's "normal".

[luinmir.livejournal.com]

The way I see it, most non-FLDS/(occasionally, LDS) poly-whatever households aren't set up to be personality cults* of women dedicated to, and sealed for all eternity to a man. That's my main problem with "plural marriage". This is not polyamory as I've come to know it: as a solution to institutionalized monogamy meant to promote sexual and emotional freedom, and thus more sexual and emotional closeness and equality, for the parties involved. From what I understand, the F/LDS idea of "plural marriage" is not the same kind of thing.

The LDS church has a long way to go toward adequately supporting women--starting with changing their official, doctrinal position that women are essentially baby machines for the Lord. (Don't get me started on the whole "priesthood" business--What the heck, Joseph Smith?) While even the friendly face the LDS church puts on their religion can't mask the underlying sexual inequality, the FLDS wack jobs seem to revel in it.

Okay, /rant. Was raised by a woman writing her dissertation on gender issues in Mormonism. I am, in fact, my mother's daughter.

*Not that my ultimate plan isn't to set up a personality cult dedicated to me... But that's different. For reasons that will come to me.

[luinmir.livejournal.com]

Append "in Western culture" or sommat to "most... poly-whatever households". I'm being ethnocentric, oh noes!

[placetohide.livejournal.com]

TOTALLY seconding this comment, as a former Mormon.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I think you're damn right. People associate "polygamy" with some seriously screwed-up shit, which is why people had to hammer together a chimaera of a word from Greek and Latin to cover the non-crazy version of many lovers.

Sometimes I wonder if the problems the LDS church has with its support of women stem from not being entirely clear on what "women's rights" means. From what they juxtapose with their earnest insistence that the church is "pro-women," they seem to think that equality means that we all notice that women sure do a lot to help their children grow up (they never mention women who don't have children, because women are defined through their children, it seems), and give them a few more compliments on how beautiful and virtuous they are. So basically, the LDS concept of "women's rights" looks a lot like a pat on the head for following the men's orders, and a definition of them only in relationship to other people (good daughter, good wife, good mother). But they don't see that; apparently just noticing women is a big damn step for them.

Yeah, I've clearly lived in Utah too long, myself. ;)

[blackbyrd2.livejournal.com]

I don't know that I really need to state my perceptions here, since you could probably deduce them, but yeah; Polyamory is a relationship between three or more people, and the individual sex of each person is not germaine to the definition of the term.
For a poly relationship to work, you need to have mature, emotionally stable people involved, capable of communicating and understanding how other people feel. Apparently you don't, in a monogamous relationship. You just need one person to be able to dominate the other. That kind of crap won't fly in a poly relationship, and thus, in my mind, anyways, poly is a superior form.
Me? I'm nowhere near stable or mature enough for a poly relationship, even though I've thought they were the way to go since high school, reading Heinlein, but then, I'm no good for a monogamous one either. I'm just fortunate to have found someone who understands my issues and accepts me for what I am.

The concept that multiple wives is the path to eternal salvation just makes me think that perhaps here is yet another case of men using religion to get whatever they think they want. Yeah, God says it's ok..er..important for me to have lots of wives without recognizing them or even actually supporting them, but women can't have multiple men, cuz that's... er.. sinful. Yeah. It's in the gospel, which I pulled out of this hat.

I don't know if I'm more disgusted with men who use religion that way, or the women who embrace this crap.