Quote of the Day, Department of Religious Affairs

[bloodyrosemccoy]

“When I say I realized I was an atheist when I was a teenager, I’m simplifying things a bit, because I was always an atheist. My big revelation wasn’t so much a realization that I was an atheist as it was a realization that other people weren’t.”

This quote was brought to you by our discussions of churchgoing at work. My coworker was totally cool with my being an atheist, because he’s one too, but he was also puzzled by the idea that I had been raised that way. Who knew atheism could be the default setting?

Comments

[cougarfang.livejournal.com]

I assume you're the one speaking in that quote?

At one point I was talking to the vet tech in charge of the spay-and-neuter clinic of the MDSPCA, and we got on the topic of religion, and I was explaining to him how my parents raised the family entirely areligious except for the yearly Chinese New Year temple visit to appease my paternal grandma (mostly because they were too lazy to be actively any-sort-of-religious) and he boggled at me like I'd sprouted a Martian out of my ear. For him it was a tough struggle to throw off the confines of his Catholic upbringing (getting to atheism "uphill both ways in the snow, barefoot") and it was just incredible to him that I could "attain Nirvana" without a second thought. XD;;

_{apologies for the horrendous religious mixaphor >_>;;}

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I'm the speaker there.

People always assume that atheism is arrived at after learning religion. Not growing up religious never even occurs to them.

[fenmere.livejournal.com]

I have a friend who was also raised atheist. He once pointed out that he's perplexed by the idea of a soul, let alone the need to believe in one.

As what I like to refer to as a "belligerent agnostic", I feel it's part of my duty to my own beliefs to understand that perspective. I was raised Lutheran. It's been the most difficult act of empathy I've attempted. Once taught, the concept of a soul is a very difficult thing to let go of.

I hope more children continue to be raise atheist. The world needs it. I'm not entirely against religion or spiritualism, but I'm completely for the perspective.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I agree completely! Atheists provide perspective!

The phrase "raised atheist" always amuses me, though--it sounds like we had regular lessons on God not existing. ;)

I use the term soul, but I think my definition is different from the religious concept. I have it tied in with "consciousness" and "personality" and all sorts of odd things, but I think it's a piecemeal understanding at best.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

My reassurance is that the universe itself is wondrous enough. Supernatural stuff seems like cheating.

I dissect Bible stories with the same gusto I'd dissect any other story. I imagine Sunday school teachers have at least a little experience with this sort of thing, but as I never went, I never tested it against them.

[gwalla.livejournal.com]

I find religion interesting, but as a subject of scrutiny, not an actual worldview to be adopted.

Even came up with my own consect...

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Very much agreed--it tells us a lot about people, anyway.

I love coming up with consects. My favorite is the group of aliens who believe god is an author and they are the characters, mostly because they are COMPLETELY RIGHT if they go meta, but also because I found it extremely funny to come up with schisms and theologies based on trying to find out what genre the story is and who the protagonist is. (Also why I laughed my ass off all the way through Stranger Than Fiction.) But the one I'm working on now is less meta and intended to look more like an actual mythos. I'm still having fun with it, though--the mnemonic jingle they teach kids about What To Do If You Find Yourself Dead makes me snicker every time.

[agenttrojie.livejournal.com]

I was raised atheist as well. I was and still am kind of ... confused ... by faith.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I keep having to remind myself that people seriously believe their religions.

[agenttrojie.livejournal.com]

Me too! And then to not ask 'but WHY?' They tend to get hurt by comments like that.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Hell, people hear "I'm an atheist" as a judgment on them.

As a kid I thought it was more like some large overblown book club--you'd go to church every week to discuss Bible stories the way we discussed Aesop's Fables or Greek myths or other stories at school, and what the author meant, and, y'know, the LITERARY stuff. It was years before I realized that they believed it.

And don't even ask about my poor little siblings. My sister was informed at age three that she was going to hell, and my brother came home from daycare at one point wondering who Jesus was and why he died for my brother.

[agenttrojie.livejournal.com]

I had to go to compulsory Christianity classes every Friday morning during the latter years of primary school. My parents decided it would probably be best for me to realise that religion existed.

Bible studies teachers vs eight year old!Trojie was a no-score draw, thanks to me not knowing how to get across that it just didn't make SENSE and them not knowing how to shut me up.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I call that move the Mindy, because it's basically the same strategy: asking "Why?" nonstop until the unfortunate grownup wants to murder everyone.

[beccastareyes]

Yes! My mother was Generic Christian (lapsed-Catholic and now is in the 'do good and you'll go to Heaven' school, and was the only theist of her siblings, despite Gramma's efforts to bring up her kids in the church) and Dad was atheist-agnostic, but she wasn't interested in teaching us religion -- she figured we'd come to our own conclusions*. It took me a while to figure out where I fell on the deist-atheist scale**, but a lot of religion feels like an elaborate game of pretend to me, even though I know that people (friends & family) believe this.

(So did my mother, for that matter. Jenn and I had to explain that Young Earth Creationists still existed and that they weren't all old people who never got biology in school. She believed in angels and God and that her parents are happy in Heaven together, but thought the Bible was entirely allegory.)

* I'm an atheist, my sister went back to Catholicism, but is the most anti-authoritarian Catholic I've met. It seems to have worked.

** It was easy to believe in things like luck or karma that rely on seeing patterns in chance. Harder to believe that the Resurrection was different than, say, Achilles being invulnerable from a bath in the underworld, or even finding a door to Narnia in your closet.

[kadharonon.livejournal.com]

Now I'm trying to remember what my mindset was when my family still went to church. I'm not sure I ever really believed in most of the stuff I heard in Bible school. I suspect that part of the reason it just never stuck was because my parents didn't really seem to be taking it seriously either, and just went to church because they'd always gone to church, and when we moved to a new place it was kind of a social thing, rather than a "we believe this" thing.

So I don't think that atheism was necessarily my default, since I was aware of religion and decided it wasn't for me and that it was rather silly to believe in some of the things they believed. But I also think that my personal moral code was heavily influenced by religion when I was young. It's also entirely possible that I'm making that up, and that I did default to atheism. Hm.

When I have kids, I'm probably going to spend a lot of time teaching them about a lot of different religions, just so they have awareness of them. That way, if they ever get the "You're going to hell" thing, they can have snappy answers, like "Well, you're probably going to Hel too, unless you plan on dying valiantly in battle and heading to Valhalla instead."

[cougarfang.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I guess it helped a lot that I grew up in Taiwan (i.e. not The Kingdoms of Christiandom - though there were some Christians around, as an actual minority) and that I had books on Norse, Egyptian, and Greek mythology alongside a copy of a children's Bible and Grimm's fairytales.

See also: this.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

That link is one of the explanations I try to pull out. Doesn't always work. ;)

I had books on Norse, Egyptian, and Greek mythology alongside a copy of a children's Bible and Grimm's fairytales.

I did, too--and I put them all in the same category! That was where my troubles all began ...

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Mom gave me some explanations of religions (a lot of "Some people believe that ___" explanations"), but I always thought of them as explanations people used in the past before they knew better. (It also took me years to realize that sexism and racism hadn't ended with the civil rights and feminist movements, which obviously were when people simply came to their senses.)

The social aspect is a huge advantage. I was a lot more aware of that, mostly because it's hard to miss living here.

How was your moral code influenced by religion? Just curious--were you worried about hell, or was it more just the advice they gave on ethics, or what?

[kadharonon.livejournal.com]

I think it's more the advice they gave on ethics. Also, the Parable of the Good Samaritan just kind of lodged in my brain at a young age. I don't think I've ever been worried about hell... which really bothered some of the people I went to high school with, let me tell you.

I don't think I really realized that maybe going to a church was a social thing for my parents, rather than a thing they did because they believed in God, until I sat and wrote that comment above, but thinking about it... yeah. We stopped going to church when I was about 10 or 11, and that was when we'd been in the area for 2-3 years, and my parents had a sort of social life.

Over the past few years, my dad has become a rather militant atheist. The vocal and embarrassing sort of militant atheist. To the point of actively discriminating against people who are religious. It's been mildly horrifying, because I think I'm more of the "You've thought it out? It brings balance/comfort/joy to your life? You're not actively harming anyone or anything by practicing it? Go for it." sort of atheist.

[gwalla.livejournal.com]

Ugh, your dad too?

[kadharonon.livejournal.com]

I have no idea what it was, but yeah. I keep trying to find a delicate way of saying "Dad, you're the atheist equivalent of a fundie Christian shouting from a street corner about how all the people on the street are going to hell," but there really isn't one.

[gwalla.livejournal.com]

Mine used to be the "general disdain for organized religion, actual anger reserved for political fundamentalism" variety, but he's turned into the "open hostility to all religion" type.

Honestly, I think some of it may be hedging after saying things particularly disparaging of Islam. Sort of an "I'm not racist, I hate all religions!" thing. It's usually things in the news that set him off: articles on Middle East violence and/or corruption, child-molesting Catholic priests, and right-wing fundamentalists light the fuse.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I had wonderfully cartoony ideals when I was a kid. I still try to live by them, but I have to remember that not everyone does. ;)

I think a lot of our problem is that we still have a lot of leftover behavioral responses FROM our evolutionary path, and not everyone overrides them even though they're no longer adaptive and may not be ethical now that we can make that choice.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Exactly! We got ahead of ourselves. Agriculture is really useful in some regards, but it needs some additional adaptations that just ... didn't happen at the same rate. (The one that I always think of is how the switch from nomadic to stationary lifestyles led to serious problems with sanitation. When you're on the go, you don't really need to worry so much about where you put your poop, because it tends to decompose quickly enough. If you build a house and live there all year, that's a lot of poop piling up. Took thousands of years to even START figuring out that was a problem.)

[queenlyzard.livejournal.com]

I love this pairing of comment and icon. Because I, too, grew up with ridiculously lofty ideals (and occasionally have trouble remembering/believing how narrow-minded some people can be)... and I attribute it in large part to the fact that the only TV shows I ever watched were educational things like Sesame Street... and Star Trek TNG.

[marag.livejournal.com]

This is what worries me about sending my kids to Hebrew School. Because I *want* to raise atheist kids, but I also want them to learn all the traditions and learn Hebrew and all the stuff like that that I don't have the time or patience or ability to teach them :(

I did believe in a god for quite a while, but it didn't really *matter* to me, if that makes any sense. I was all, "okay, whatever, there's some dude in the sky, now let's go eat more latkes." And when I reached college, all my doubts crystallized and I realized that the latkes were great, but the whole god thing made NO SENSE WHATSOEVER.

I just hope I'm not screwing my kids up. ::sigh::

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

I figure in that case they're getting the cultural side, and you're giving them perspective on the religious aspects, so I, at least, am not too worried about your kids. ;)

I get what you mean by god not mattering, too. He's not really micromanaging your life, after all. (I always found that to be weird, too--god fine-tuning everyone's life. Does he really CARE?)

[gwalla.livejournal.com]

Back in college some of the folks I knew from the dorm floor were in the "Trojan Christian Fellowship" (this was USC). Generally nice folks. But one time I overheard a pair of them (one guy and a girl) at the dining hall. She was upset because of a breakup (or fight or something) with her boyfriend, and he told her something about praying and Christ will change the guy's mind. I didn't say anything, but that sounded all kinds of wrong. I mean, what about free will?

And then there was the "student play" that turned out to be a thinly disguised religious deal (and ripped off lines from "Good Will Hunting")...

[marag.livejournal.com]

It's weird, because I know in theory that I believed in a deity, but I can't remember what it felt like. I can't imagine how I could have believed such patent nonsense and can't wrap my brain around how other supposedly intelligent adults still do. ::shakes head::

[beccastareyes]

Same here. Though I remember seeing a discussion over on Pharyngula about when the commenters learned of Hell and realizing that there were other people who never really grokked religion because they weren't raised religious. It feels like there's this default assumption, even in atheist circles, that every atheist has some enlightening deconversion story, despite the fact that a lot of the commenters have kids who they aren't raising in the church. Maybe because religion is so prevalent that one assumes everyone has a 'Christian' upbringing and changes later.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Well, I think it's because a lot of atheists do have that sort of story, and yeah, it's probably because religious upbringings are so prevalent. But I think nobody puts enough stock in the "Hey, wait, I just realized I've been an atheist all along" story, or even the "Yeah, I'm an atheist, always have been" one.

[sofish-sasha.livejournal.com]

As far as I can tell, here in Sweden it's more unusual to be raised into religion than it is to be raised as an atheist. Proper secularity FTW!

[ellixis.livejournal.com]

I seem to be an oddity in these here parts: raised atheist, later turned agnostic, in a "pretty sure there's something out there but hell if I know what" kind of way. Never have seen any compelling reason that logic, science, and all those other beautiful things that make society tick can't coexist peacefully with religion. It continues to confound me that people insist that they're mutually exclusive - from either side of the debate.

[stormteller.livejournal.com]

It's always seemed to me that Atheism is just another religion, or at least a religious position. People can be raised into it as easily as any other ideology, and grown people can convert to or from it just as with any other. It's not a more inherently sensible idea than any other.

(I'm an ignostic, by the way)

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's definitely something you can get from your upbringing, but atheism is not a religion--it's a lack thereof. Atheism has no formal tenets, no supernatural beings or concepts, no sacred narratives. I'll buy religious "position," but only in the sense that it's outside of religion.

And hell, I do think it's the most sensible idea, because I subscribe to it!--but I ain't gonna tell others what to believe.

[(Anonymous)]

I hate that it's so often assumed that atheism is some big rebellious statement against the organized religion of one's youth. I've had this conversations more times than I can count:

Person A: "What religion are you?"

Me: "I'm not religious."

Person A: "Yeah, yeah, but you know what I mean. What religion are your parents?"

Me: "None."

Person A: "But...what kind of church do they go to?"

Me: "None. They're not religious either.

Person A: *blank stare*

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

HAHAHA yes. Or when they assume you're an atheist because you hate god. Which ... yeah, the logic needs work there.

[gwalla.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that bugs me about pretty much every "atheist" character in a Hollywood movie. They're generally Christians who had some sort of traumatic experience (tragic death of a loved one, usually) and who are mad at God for it. That's not an atheist, that's a whiny believer.

[padparadscha.livejournal.com]

Bonus points if the atheist decides, in a moment of vulnerability, that Maybe Miracles Do Happen After All.

Also, nobody ever LIKES being an atheist in Hollywood. If you do find a Hollywood atheist who somehow actually doesn't believe in god, they still think the Christian god would be a GREAT thing to have but they just can't believe it because they are cynical.

There's also that false dichotomy presented between atheism and the Judeo-Christian god. Atheists rarely are required to justify themselves against Hinduism or Voodoo or any religion practiced largely by nonwhite folk, and yet Hollywood people just can't IMAGINE what objections they might have to White Western God. Which to me sounds like, "Well, obviously you don't believe in djinn or leprechauns or the chupacabra, but WHAT THE HELL DO YOU HAVE AGAINST UNICORNS NOT TO BELIEVE IN THEM?!"

[http://users.livejournal.com/_wastrel/]

I'm afraid that my story doesn't quite refute the trope the way yours does, since as I think I may have mentioned, I was raised Christian and it took me until I was all of 22 years old to become the atheist I've been for the past 6 years. (Of course, I believed in the other gods too back then, just that they were supposed to be lower in the hierarchy or something) My b/f, like you, has always been an atheist and has no idea of what it could be like to be brought up otherwise. I have to admit that I sometimes trust his judgment more than mine based on that, because if I could be that wrong about something that seems so obvious now for such a long time without having been aware of it, how do I know what I could be missing now?

[killabee886.livejournal.com]

I was raised more agnostic than atheist, and religion was never really a topic we discussed. I knew of churches and some kids went to it on Sundays. But I always viewed it as an extra activity some kids do, like I did Girl Scouts.

In fact, it wasn't until my little sister became "saved" and went to a Christian college that any discussion of religion really came up, and it wasn't from my sister, but from my mother. Now my mother asks constantly about my beliefs, "Do you believe in God?" "Do you have faith?" I think my mother has some guilt about not taking us to church and getting us baptized, she's even brought up the subject about me getting baptized, which I shot right down. I think it would be insulting to get baptized, even when I have no belief in the religion just for a "just in case" scenario.

I also find it odd that people need religion to be reminded to be good. I can be a good person without the need of an intangible parent figure watching me. *looks up suspiciously* I'm also weary of ANYONE who says they have the answers. I may not be religious, but I'm not going to be persumptious enough to say "I'm right, they're wrong," or "look how much better I am you mindless sheep," because I don't have any answers either.

Can we just all agree to play nicely with EVERYONE in the sand box?

[gwalla.livejournal.com]

I think it would be insulting to get baptized, even when I have no belief in the religion just for a "just in case" scenario.

And depending on the denomination, adult baptism is just supposed to be symbolic of, or parallel to, something happening internally. So from that perspective, getting baptised "just in case" is seriously missing the point.